http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg

Andrew

sucks to be those guys

-John
*You are nothing until you have flown a Douglas, Lockheed, Grumman or North
American*

"Andrew" > wrote in message
...
> http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
>
> Andrew

Saw this a few days ago. This misses the first part of that vid.

The guy in the pickup truck stops, gets out, and talks to the guy in the
larger truck. He then appears to look directly at the Apache, seems to
realize that they are being watched. He then reaches back into the pickup
truck, and pulls out what looks like a RPG or other small shoulder fired
launcher.

He runs out into the field to the left, drops the launcher, and runs back.
This vid starts a few seconds after that.

I think I saw it on Nightline(?).

Pete

"Andrew" > wrote in message
...
> http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
>
> Andrew
>

Although it is amazing to see combat video like this........

Certain things don't look exactly kosher to me...........

1. Does anyone else notice that these Iraqi's were walking up to a tractor,
one was in the drivers seat?

2. After the first Iraqi is killed, the one next to the tractor waves a
piece of cloth in the air - which is a sign of surrender and commonly used
by Iraqi's ......... and the Apache gunner shoots him anyway....

3. The last Iraqi shot, was wounded and rolling on the ground - even though
the gunner reported him wounded he was told to shoot him again
anyway........ so now it is ok to shoot the wounded and those that wish to
surrender?

4. You'll notice even the gunner thought this to be a bit excessive, and he
seems to have targeted the truck on the right - instead of moving forward as
ordered (With the sight) and hitting the wounded iraqi directly...........

So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not carrying
weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........

I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
video........

"Helomech >" > wrote
>
> So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not carrying
> weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
> busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........
>
> I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
> video........

See my other post in this thread. The first part was cut, and had shown what
appeared (to me anyway) to be a shoulder fired weapon of some sort, being
taken out of the pickup truck and tossed out into the field.

Still iffy, though.

Where one might see the whole video, no idea.

Pete

> Still iffy, though.

Still iffy in that you're presumably watching three human beings being
killed. Granted, they might not be nice human beings. But in the
paraphrased words of Randy "Duke" Cunningham, "I didn't ever get used to
killing. If you ever get used to killing, I don't think you belong here [on
earth]". Calmly sitting at your PC and watching people die is ghoulish at
best (and I thought it was illegal to show videos of people dying?).

Tony

"Helomech >" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Andrew" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
> >
> > Andrew
> >
>
> Although it is amazing to see combat video like this........
>
> Certain things don't look exactly kosher to me...........
>
> 1. Does anyone else notice that these Iraqi's were walking up to a
tractor,
> one was in the drivers seat?

Yep, assumedly some of what was seen is not on this video.

> 2. After the first Iraqi is killed, the one next to the tractor waves a
> piece of cloth in the air - which is a sign of surrender and commonly
used
> by Iraqi's ......... and the Apache gunner shoots him anyway....

I wouldn't go that far.
It looks to me that the man by the tractor is tearing the covering off a
bundle.
Just as the cross hairs go back to him you can see something flexible on the
ground in front of him he is "working" with. With his left hand he pulls of
the
cloth with a long jerk that throws his arm and the cloth behind him and
slightly
into the air as he is leaned over. This is not a surrender wave as he drops
that
item and leans farther over and puts his hands to what is left.
In fact if you watch carefully on full screen you can see this guy pulling
something out of the tractor as he disappears of the left side as the gun
tracks
the man that came down off the tractor.
Given the general shape and size of the object "waved" I can't help thinking
"gun case."
At any rate, the waving "in the air" is just the quick back swing of what
ever
cloth removal from what ever source.

> 3. The last Iraqi shot, was wounded and rolling on the ground - even
though
> the gunner reported him wounded he was told to shoot him again
> anyway........ so now it is ok to shoot the wounded and those that wish to
> surrender?

Wounded, yea, if you just wounded them, they are over there, you are over
here
and you have no means of taking them prisoner.
Surrendering? I see no one trying to surrender.

> 4. You'll notice even the gunner thought this to be a bit excessive, and
he
> seems to have targeted the truck on the right - instead of moving forward
as
> ordered (With the sight) and hitting the wounded iraqi directly...........

If you say so.

> So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not carrying
> weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
> busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........

It would have been better to capture them. But that requires a patrol in
the area and who says there was one?

> I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
> video........

See more of the video and I'll wager you do.

"Pete" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Andrew" > wrote in message
> ...
> > http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
> >
> > Andrew
>
> Saw this a few days ago. This misses the first part of that vid.

I suspected as much.

"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
> > Still iffy, though.
>
> Still iffy in that you're presumably watching three human beings being
> killed. Granted, they might not be nice human beings. But in the
> paraphrased words of Randy "Duke" Cunningham, "I didn't ever get used to
> killing. If you ever get used to killing, I don't think you belong here
[on
> earth]". Calmly sitting at your PC and watching people die is ghoulish at
> best (and I thought it was illegal to show videos of people dying?).
>

Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
disturbing.

The reason I say *iffy* is because We Don't Know.

What were the events leading up to this encounter? Had the Apache simply
happened upon 3 guys out in a field and proceeded to shoot? Or had the
pickup truck been tracked from an earlier encounter? Had the driver already
shot at US troops? Had he already shot at, and missed, the Apache doing the
shooting?

We Don't Know.

The video linked in the post is only about second half of the one I saw on
TV (Nightline, I believe). The part that isn't seen may well lead one to a
different conclusion as to the why and what.

Seeing only the shortened video clip here, I could very easily assume an
overzealous helicopter crew. Possibly even criminal. But that little clip is
by no means the entire story.

We don't know the entire story of this particular encounter.

Pete

Nightline has the video on their web site, but you need to join up to
see it.

Pete wrote:

>"Tony Volk" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>Still iffy, though.
>>>
>>>
>> Still iffy in that you're presumably watching three human beings being
>>killed. Granted, they might not be nice human beings. But in the
>>paraphrased words of Randy "Duke" Cunningham, "I didn't ever get used to
>>killing. If you ever get used to killing, I don't think you belong here
>>
>>
>[on
>
>
>>earth]". Calmly sitting at your PC and watching people die is ghoulish at
>>best (and I thought it was illegal to show videos of people dying?).
>>
>>
>>
>
>Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
>what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
>disturbing.
>
>The reason I say *iffy* is because We Don't Know.
>
>What were the events leading up to this encounter? Had the Apache simply
>happened upon 3 guys out in a field and proceeded to shoot? Or had the
>pickup truck been tracked from an earlier encounter? Had the driver already
>shot at US troops? Had he already shot at, and missed, the Apache doing the
>shooting?
>
>We Don't Know.
>
>The video linked in the post is only about second half of the one I saw on
>TV (Nightline, I believe). The part that isn't seen may well lead one to a
>different conclusion as to the why and what.
>
>Seeing only the shortened video clip here, I could very easily assume an
>overzealous helicopter crew. Possibly even criminal. But that little clip is
>by no means the entire story.
>
>We don't know the entire story of this particular encounter.
>
>Pete
>
>
>
>

"Helomech" >> wrote in message >...
> So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not carrying
> weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
> busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........
>
> I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
> video........

I've seen the full-length video. Probably about 9 minutes long,
although I could be wrong. It's definitely long. Anyway, there's
definitely a long cylindrical object that looks just right to be
either an RPG or a MANPADS that one of the subjects pulls from the
smaller truck and walks about 70-90 feet into the field and sets down.
Anyone's guess as to what the story was, although to me it appeared
like it was possibly an ambush site being stocked. The radio chatter
is significant...there's a lot of back and forth discussion of what's
being observed, what to do, and the clearance to fire doesn't come for
a good 5-6 minutes. The first two subjects just flat-out disappear
when fired on. The third was under the truck when he was spotted, and
the first burst chewed up the front of the truck and some rounds
looked like they made it underneath. When he crawls out, it sure
looks like he's missing a leg and is hurt bad, so the second burst
certainly put him out of his misery.

Is it shocking? Yeah. Is it justified? Not my call to make,
although I would presume that the actions they were undertaking were
clear enough to identify as insurgency-related and that the Apache was
the only viable option for intercepting the subjects.

And I CERTAINLY believe that any news program would cut the vid to
just the minute or so of target engagement at the expense of the
context of the moment.

Where is the full length?

"Jeb Hoge" > wrote in message
om...
> "Helomech" >> wrote in message
>...
<snip>

Andrew ) writes:
> http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
>
> Andrew
>
A more complete version is located at:

http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi

"John Keeney" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Helomech >" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Andrew" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
> > >
> > > Andrew
> > >
> >
> > Although it is amazing to see combat video like this........
> >
> > Certain things don't look exactly kosher to me...........
> >
> > 1. Does anyone else notice that these Iraqi's were walking up to a
> tractor,
> > one was in the drivers seat?
>
> Yep, assumedly some of what was seen is not on this video.
>
> > 2. After the first Iraqi is killed, the one next to the tractor waves a
> > piece of cloth in the air - which is a sign of surrender and commonly
> used
> > by Iraqi's ......... and the Apache gunner shoots him anyway....
>
> I wouldn't go that far.
> It looks to me that the man by the tractor is tearing the covering off a
> bundle.
> Just as the cross hairs go back to him you can see something flexible on
the
> ground in front of him he is "working" with. With his left hand he pulls
of
> the
> cloth with a long jerk that throws his arm and the cloth behind him and
> slightly
> into the air as he is leaned over. This is not a surrender wave as he
drops
> that
> item and leans farther over and puts his hands to what is left.
> In fact if you watch carefully on full screen you can see this guy pulling
> something out of the tractor as he disappears of the left side as the gun
> tracks
> the man that came down off the tractor.
> Given the general shape and size of the object "waved" I can't help
thinking
> "gun case."
> At any rate, the waving "in the air" is just the quick back swing of what
> ever
> cloth removal from what ever source.

Well actually after watching the "Entire video" not just the shortened
version which has been making the rounds....... it is plain to see that the
crew thought the Iraqi had a weapon, the threw it to the ground, and it
seems the third Iraqi picked it up (off camera) and took it over to the
"tractor"...... and yes it could very well have been a gun case - bag.......
but no - in my opinion it was too small and thin of an item to be an RPG or
MANPAD.......more likely a rifle / AK?


>
> > 3. The last Iraqi shot, was wounded and rolling on the ground - even
> though
> > the gunner reported him wounded he was told to shoot him again
> > anyway........ so now it is ok to shoot the wounded and those that wish
to
> > surrender?
>
> Wounded, yea, if you just wounded them, they are over there, you are over
> here
> and you have no means of taking them prisoner.
> Surrendering? I see no one trying to surrender.
>
> > 4. You'll notice even the gunner thought this to be a bit excessive, and
> he
> > seems to have targeted the truck on the right - instead of moving
forward
> as
> > ordered (With the sight) and hitting the wounded iraqi
directly...........
>
> If you say so.
>
> > So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not
carrying
> > weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
> > busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........
>
> It would have been better to capture them. But that requires a patrol in
> the area and who says there was one?
>
> > I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
> > video........
>
> See more of the video and I'll wager you do.
>
>

Acknowledged, still I think this is more of a case of these Iraqi's being in
the wrong place at the wrong time.....looking like they had weapons - or did
have at least one.......

Helomech

"Jeb Hoge" > wrote in message
om...
> "Helomech" >> wrote in message
>...
> > So what do we have here........ 3 guys slaughtered that were not
carrying
> > weapons - not pointing anything at anyone........perhaps trying to fix a
> > busted tractor in the wrong place at the wrong time........
> >
> > I don't see one weapon that the Iraqi's had..........anywhere in this
> > video........
>
> I've seen the full-length video. Probably about 9 minutes long,
> although I could be wrong. It's definitely long. Anyway, there's
> definitely a long cylindrical object that looks just right to be
> either an RPG or a MANPADS that one of the subjects pulls from the
> smaller truck and walks about 70-90 feet into the field and sets down.

Put on full screen with the video resolution from the TADS... hte object
being carried by the Iraqi is not the right size of an RPG or a manpad...
more likely a rifle or AK.



> Anyone's guess as to what the story was, although to me it appeared
> like it was possibly an ambush site being stocked. The radio chatter
> is significant...there's a lot of back and forth discussion of what's
> being observed, what to do, and the clearance to fire doesn't come for
> a good 5-6 minutes. The first two subjects just flat-out disappear
> when fired on. The third was under the truck when he was spotted, and
> the first burst chewed up the front of the truck and some rounds
> looked like they made it underneath. When he crawls out, it sure
> looks like he's missing a leg and is hurt bad, so the second burst
> certainly put him out of his misery.

So now we shoot the wounded to "Put them out of their misery"?
Does that look bad or what?

Somebody got a little excited and trigger happy in my opinion.......
I know that sometimes the ROE get bent and taking out the bad guys is
paramount........but someone should explain this action a bit
clearer.......... I think this one is gonna haunt the Army for
awhile........ I bet every news agency in the arab world is going to show
that wounded Iraqi being gunned down ......including aljazeera - which
sucks.....or could be explained a whole lot better in context...... but all
I am hearing is silence..........from the Army. And who the hell released
this video in the first place?


>
> Is it shocking? Yeah. Is it justified? Not my call to make,
> although I would presume that the actions they were undertaking were
> clear enough to identify as insurgency-related and that the Apache was
> the only viable option for intercepting the subjects.
>
> And I CERTAINLY believe that any news program would cut the vid to
> just the minute or so of target engagement at the expense of the
> context of the moment.

Of course they cut the video to only show what works for their agenda.......
which is exactly the original video I saw.... the shortened one.

Helomech

neb.rr.com>

> Well actually after watching the "Entire video" not just the shortened
> version which has been making the rounds....... it is plain to see
> that the

Where can I find this longer wersion (as download-able file i.e. .avi /
..mpeg) ?

--
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l-.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
GG-1175498 ____| ]____,
Rafal 'Raf256' Maj X-( * )
Rafal(at)Raf256(dot)com ,"----------"

> Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
> what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
> disturbing.

I don't question the motives of the pilots (not nearly enough info to do
that), I just think that all this posting of footage of Americans killing
enemies (Afghanistan & Iraq) is pretty tasteless. Sure, some of these
victims are evil men who are deserving of justice (death or not isn't
something I'll debate), and the pilots were probably acting under
self-defense or justifiable acts of war. I'm not blaming the pilots, I'm
not blaming the American troops or the efforts against terrorism.
I just think it's tasteless to show their deaths across the world,
especially in such trivial contexts. Imagine if their deaths were
accidental, and their families knew that their faces were being shown across
the world (remember the Somalis dragging the dead American soldiers, or the
people falling from the WTC?). I'm not attacking you (as you also found
them disturbing), just the general idea that it's OK to broadcast explicit
videos of people dying in such a trivial context. This isn't soldiers doing
the dirty work of analyzing battle footage. This is either trivia or
entertainment and I don't think either of those justify trivializing the
death of a group of human beings. As my quote from Randy said, when you
start taking other people's death as no big deal, that might be a sign you
really don't belong here amongst moral, civilized people.

Tony

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:34:45 -0500, "Tony Volk"
> wrote:

>> Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
>> what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
>> disturbing.
>
> I don't question the motives of the pilots (not nearly enough info to do
>that), I just think that all this posting of footage of Americans killing
>enemies (Afghanistan & Iraq) is pretty tasteless. Sure, some of these
>victims are evil men who are deserving of justice (death or not isn't
>something I'll debate), and the pilots were probably acting under
>self-defense or justifiable acts of war. I'm not blaming the pilots, I'm
>not blaming the American troops or the efforts against terrorism.
> I just think it's tasteless to show their deaths across the world,
>especially in such trivial contexts.

I think you'd have to talk to the news services about that. They've
never been known to have scruples or many brains either. ISTR that
the excuse they used was they were debating if a 30mm gun was
"excessive". Gotta love those PC, tree hugging dumbasses. It's a
good thing they've never heard of artillery or bombs huh? Dead is
dead.

Darrell A. Larose > wrote:
> Andrew ) writes:
>> http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
>>
>> Andrew
>>
> A more complete version is located at:

> http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi

This appears to be corrupted. If you encoded it, could try to
re-encode it, otherwise does anyone else have the complete clip?

Andrew

http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi



"Rafal 'Raf256' Maj" > wrote in message
...
> neb.rr.com>
>
> > Well actually after watching the "Entire video" not just the shortened
> > version which has been making the rounds....... it is plain to see
> > that the
>
> Where can I find this longer wersion (as download-able file i.e. .avi /
> .mpeg) ?
>
> --
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~l-.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> GG-1175498 ____| ]____,
> Rafal 'Raf256' Maj X-( * )
> Rafal(at)Raf256(dot)com ,"----------"

Clark wrote:

> Andrew > wrote in :
>
>
>>Darrell A. Larose > wrote:
>>
>>>Andrew ) writes:
>>>
>>>>http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
>>>>
>>>>Andrew
>>>>
>>>
>>>A more complete version is located at:
>>
>>>http://home.comcast.net/~antman01/apache_mission_in_iraq.avi
>>
>>This appears to be corrupted. If you encoded it, could try to
>>re-encode it, otherwise does anyone else have the complete clip?
>>
>
> It downloaded fine for me

And me

John

"Tony Volk" > wrote

> > Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there,
and
> > what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
> > disturbing.
>
> I don't question the motives of the pilots (not nearly enough info to
do
> that), I just think that all this posting of footage of Americans killing
> enemies (Afghanistan & Iraq) is pretty tasteless. Sure, some of these
> victims are evil men who are deserving of justice (death or not isn't
> something I'll debate), and the pilots were probably acting under
> self-defense or justifiable acts of war. I'm not blaming the pilots, I'm
> not blaming the American troops or the efforts against terrorism.
> I just think it's tasteless to show their deaths across the world,
> especially in such trivial contexts. Imagine if their deaths were
> accidental, and their families knew that their faces were being shown
across
> the world (remember the Somalis dragging the dead American soldiers, or
the
> people falling from the WTC?). I'm not attacking you (as you also found
> them disturbing), just the general idea that it's OK to broadcast explicit
> videos of people dying in such a trivial context. This isn't soldiers
doing
> the dirty work of analyzing battle footage. This is either trivia or
> entertainment and I don't think either of those justify trivializing the
> death of a group of human beings. As my quote from Randy said, when you
> start taking other people's death as no big deal, that might be a sign you
> really don't belong here amongst moral, civilized people.

War is a grisly affair. Most people (read civilians) don't appreciate just
how grisly.

Maybe, if more of these grisly bits were shown, there'd be less overall
support for future wars, by whatever country.

3 guys dying in a field is far more realistic than "The 4th ID takes the
town of FupDuk".

If you want to go to war, fine. Just realize exactly what it is you are
doing.

Pete

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 00:34:45 -0500, "Tony Volk" > wrote:

>> Ghoulish? Maybe. But it also helps us to understand conditions there, and
>> what the troops, pilots, and Iraqis are going through. I found it very
>> disturbing.
>
> I don't question the motives of the pilots (not nearly enough info to do
>that), I just think that all this posting of footage of Americans killing
>enemies (Afghanistan & Iraq) is pretty tasteless. Sure, some of these
>victims are evil men who are deserving of justice (death or not isn't
>something I'll debate), and the pilots were probably acting under
>self-defense or justifiable acts of war. I'm not blaming the pilots, I'm
>not blaming the American troops or the efforts against terrorism.
> I just think it's tasteless to show their deaths across the world,
>especially in such trivial contexts. Imagine if their deaths were
>accidental, and their families knew that their faces were being shown across
>the world (remember the Somalis dragging the dead American soldiers, or the
>people falling from the WTC?). I'm not attacking you (as you also found
>them disturbing), just the general idea that it's OK to broadcast explicit
>videos of people dying in such a trivial context. This isn't soldiers doing
>the dirty work of analyzing battle footage. This is either trivia or
>entertainment and I don't think either of those justify trivializing the
>death of a group of human beings. As my quote from Randy said, when you
>start taking other people's death as no big deal, that might be a sign you
>really don't belong here amongst moral, civilized people.
>
>Tony
>
Every one dies, life is a terminal disease. Death is really
not that big of a deal, get over it.

Al Minyard

> War is a grisly affair. Most people (read civilians) don't appreciate just
> how grisly.
> Maybe, if more of these grisly bits were shown, there'd be less overall
> support for future wars, by whatever country.
> 3 guys dying in a field is far more realistic than "The 4th ID takes the
> town of FupDuk".
> If you want to go to war, fine. Just realize exactly what it is you are
> doing.
> Pete

My entire point is that people should take more concern regarding death.
I don't think many citizens take war lightly, and I think most appreciate
that it's a very grisly business.
But if you really want to warn citizens about the perils of war,
wouldn't it be far more effective to show their own soldiers die? Let's get
some footage of American soldiers dying. Preferably some really good stuff
of a wounded soldier screaming in pain, missing a limb, bleeding to death,
and passing on a message of love to his family before dying. Then let's air
that and see how tasteful or necessary showing combat deaths become. I
don't think showing people die is an appropriate educational or propaganda
tool.

Tony

> Every one dies, life is a terminal disease. Death is really
> not that big of a deal, get over it.
> Al Minyard

Wow. Deep, deep, statement. So if everyone you cared about died, it
would be no big deal, right? Heck, if someone went to kill you, that'd just
be advancing the course of your terminal disease. You're right, there's
nothing special about life, and the violent end of another human's life is
really no big deal. You should teach ethics! Sarcasm off.

Tony

"Tony Volk" wrote:

> My entire point is that people should take more concern regarding death.
>I don't think many citizens take war lightly, and I think most appreciate
>that it's a very grisly business.

I pretty much agree with your point about the tastefulness of
this video being released and broadcast - and I don't find any reason
to critique the aircrew either, especially since there appears to be
weaponry being handled by the soldiers near the trucks.

However, don't take it for granted that people are actually
clued-in as to how violent combat is. Take the movie "Titanic" for
example - while a visually impressive narrative, what seems to have
struck most viewers is that it depicted the death and tragedy of the
wreck - and thus showing them something they were too obtuse or
willfully ignorant to consider made it "a great film." People shocked
at the violence of this gun camera footage are simply ignorant of war
and and what it really means, let alone why it is sometimes necessary.




----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
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> However, don't take it for granted that people are actually
> clued-in as to how violent combat is. Take the movie "Titanic" for
> example - while a visually impressive narrative, what seems to have
> struck most viewers is that it depicted the death and tragedy of the
> wreck - and thus showing them something they were too obtuse or
> willfully ignorant to consider made it "a great film." People shocked
> at the violence of this gun camera footage are simply ignorant of war
> and and what it really means, let alone why it is sometimes necessary.

Well, I'm not an expert on the psyche of the average citizen, so I won't
debate this. I think I've made my point about being sensitive (glad to
hear you agree!), and I'll leave with the suggestion that there are perhaps
more sensitive ways of exposing people to the horrors of war (not being a
combat vet myself, I think I'll leave what those ways are to people more
qualified than I). Cheers,

Tony

Clark wrote:
> It downloaded fine for me

The avi didn't work for me--Apple said it needed things
to decode it that it didn't have.

Is it just me, or did two of those guys wave something
(cloth, white?) before getting bopped? Check the one
by the tractor.


Jeff

"Jeff Crowell" > wrote in message
...
> Clark wrote:
> > It downloaded fine for me
>
> The avi didn't work for me--Apple said it needed things
> to decode it that it didn't have.
>
> Is it just me, or did two of those guys wave something
> (cloth, white?) before getting bopped? Check the one
> by the tractor.
>
>
> Jeff
>
>

It's you. The video I saw is not color so it's impossible to tell what
color objects are. Or do you have a different version?

Jarg

> My entire point is that people should take more concern regarding death.
>I don't think many citizens take war lightly, and I think most appreciate
>that it's a very grisly business.
> But if you really want to warn citizens about the perils of war,
>wouldn't it be far more effective to show their own soldiers die? Let's get
>some footage of American soldiers dying. Preferably some really good stuff
>of a wounded soldier screaming in pain, missing a limb, bleeding to death,
>and passing on a message of love to his family before dying. Then let's air
>that and see how tasteful or necessary showing combat deaths become. I
>don't think showing people die is an appropriate educational or propaganda
>tool.
>
>Tony
>

More likely than not it would have the US citizens howling for MORE of
the enemy's blood. And pretty much any news service that focused on
US soldiers with the intent to demoralize the population would
shooting themselves in the head. If you REALLY want war to be gone
then figure out how to make assholes like Saddam go away. Really all
you are saying is you want to scare people into letting tyrants rule
because I can guarantee you that people like Saddam don't give a ****
if their citizens get slaughtered.

Jarg wrote:

> "Jeff Crowell" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Clark wrote:
>>
>>>It downloaded fine for me
>>
>>The avi didn't work for me--Apple said it needed things
>>to decode it that it didn't have.
>>
>>Is it just me, or did two of those guys wave something
>>(cloth, white?) before getting bopped? Check the one
>>by the tractor.
>>
>>
>>Jeff
>>
>>
>
>
> It's you. The video I saw is not color so it's impossible to tell what
> color objects are. Or do you have a different version?

Er... even on a monochrome video, things can look dark or white!

I realise it was IR footage from the Apache's FLIR though.

John

"John Mullen" > wrote in message
...
> Jarg wrote:
>
> > "Jeff Crowell" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>Clark wrote:
> >>
> >>>It downloaded fine for me
> >>
> >>The avi didn't work for me--Apple said it needed things
> >>to decode it that it didn't have.
> >>
> >>Is it just me, or did two of those guys wave something
> >>(cloth, white?) before getting bopped? Check the one
> >>by the tractor.
> >>
> >>
> >>Jeff
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > It's you. The video I saw is not color so it's impossible to tell what
> > color objects are. Or do you have a different version?
>
> Er... even on a monochrome video, things can look dark or white!
>
> I realise it was IR footage from the Apache's FLIR though.
>
> John
>

Then perhaps light, as in dark or light, would have been more accurate a
description. It is impossible to say from that footage what color the rag
was.

Jarg

Jarg wrote:

> "John Mullen" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jarg wrote:
>>
>>
>>>"Jeff Crowell" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Clark wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>It downloaded fine for me
>>>>
>>>>The avi didn't work for me--Apple said it needed things
>>>>to decode it that it didn't have.
>>>>
>>>>Is it just me, or did two of those guys wave something
>>>>(cloth, white?) before getting bopped? Check the one
>>>>by the tractor.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Jeff
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>It's you. The video I saw is not color so it's impossible to tell what
>>>color objects are. Or do you have a different version?
>>
>>Er... even on a monochrome video, things can look dark or white!
>>
>>I realise it was IR footage from the Apache's FLIR though.
>>
>>John
>>
>
>
> Then perhaps light, as in dark or light, would have been more accurate a
> description. It is impossible to say from that footage what color the rag
> was.

Agreed

John

"Andrew" > wrote in message
...
> http://w3.kill-9.com/apache_kills.mpeg
>
> Andrew
>

I finally got round to watching this gun camera footage, and I've got to
say, for those who are still reluctant to view it for taste reasons, it's
worth watching if you've been disconcerted by the hype around it. I
expected to see a couple or three Iraqis shooting the breeze around a
tractor, talking about the coming harvest before being massacred by the evil
Americans. What I saw was three guys obviously up to no good who knew they
had been observed and were trying to ditch the evidence (I call it as an
SA-7 or one of later Soviet MANPADS, it's too long to be an RPG launcher
without the warhead and too thin to be an AK in a case as some have said).
I infer from their behaviour that they expected a ground patrol to come
along and question them. Unfortunately for them, no.

All the best,
Andy

On Thu, 15 Jan 2004 13:14:51 -0500, "Tony Volk" > wrote:

>> Every one dies, life is a terminal disease. Death is really
>> not that big of a deal, get over it.
>> Al Minyard
>
> Wow. Deep, deep, statement. So if everyone you cared about died, it
>would be no big deal, right? Heck, if someone went to kill you, that'd just
>be advancing the course of your terminal disease. You're right, there's
>nothing special about life, and the violent end of another human's life is
>really no big deal. You should teach ethics! Sarcasm off.
>
>Tony
>
So you think that you are going to live forever?? Good Luck!!!!!!
Everyone I care about *will* die. I cannot prevent that from
happening. If they happen to die before I do, then I will honor their
life, but I realize that, sooner or later, they are going to die.

Al Minyard